most essential Esperanto dictionary
Regarding the poll regarding the most essential dictionary regarding Esperanto, it’s hands down in favor of Plena Ilustrita Vortaro, since PIV is VIP spelled backwards.
But, joking aside, I was just wondering how many other people were disappointed, as I was, when, many years ago having bought by mail order a copy of PIV, finding out that its “illustrations” were so meager. I was expecting full-page color spreads of vegetables, household appliances, etc., as is given in nowadays in “learners” dictionaries of English.
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- Mike Jones
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"learners" dictionaries
In any case, I wouldn't expect PIV to be like a "learners" dictionary... PIV is many things, but it is not a "learners" dictionary. :)
I suspect that Kvarko's comment is right, i.e. that "ilustrita" refers to illustrations of word usage in illustrative quotations.
February 14, 2010 by russ, 1 year 51 weeks ago
Comments about dictionaries . . .
1. Once again, if you’re interested in the new Wells dictionary, due out in March, pre-order it from Mondial by Feb. 28 for a significant price break.
http://www.librejo.com/wells-vortaro/index.html
2. The Plena Vortaro seemed to be readily available for a while, even after it went out of print, but it has become much scarcer. www.abe.com lists a few copies, but most of them are priced high, especially after you factor in postage from Europe or other places. It’s definitely worth having, so if you come across a copy snatch it up.
3. As for the “ilustrita” part of PIV, the idea that it refers to examples is possible, but I don’t believe that was the intent of the editors. In the “Ĝenerala Antaŭparolo” of the first edition, Waringhien wrote:
“. . . en tiu tempo Lanti kovis pli aŭdacan projekton: li volis, ke P.V. fariĝu ia ilustrita enciklopedio, analoga al la franca ‘Petit Larousse Illustré’.”
If you’re familiar with the Larousse dictionaries, the distinguishing characteristic of the “Illustré” is the abundance of pictures and drawings. It’s also telling that the pictures in the PIV are called “ilustraĵoj”, not “bildoj” or “desegnaĵoj”, etc.
Regardless, these illustrations are an interesting—an amuzing—part of our history. Why, for instance, were the particular items chosen to have drawings? It’s an odd, selective grouping, without any clear logic.
I believe I’ve read somewhere—probably in the magazine “Esperanto” around the time of original publication—that the intent was to integrate the drawings throughout the text, but that presented too many technical difficulties and so they were placed together at the end. The NPIV and PIV2005 resolved that and placed them with their entries.
February 14, 2010 by Lee Miller, 1 year 51 weeks ago
Lee, the history of
Lee, the history of illustrations in dictionaries is indeed a fascinating subject. I highly recommend that you check out a book recently published from an artist in my town Pictorial Webster's. He surveyed the collection of woodcarvings from Webster's full collection and cleaned them up and printed them. They do indeed reflect very interetsing things -- pictures which are meant to convey a simple concept, like "arm", may have totally irrelevant details such as being the arm of a WWI soldier, say, which sometimes illustrate the thinking of that time period and sometimes are just random (where you have to wonder what the illustrator was thinking). The intent of the book is that people will browse and make connections and muse on just these kinds of things.
March 12, 2010 by kvarko, 1 year 47 weeks ago
(Senilustrita) Plena Vortaro de Esperanto (kun suplemento)
Unless you need a really exhaustive dictionary, I've always preferred the (senilustrita) Plena Vortaro de Esperanto (kun suplemento) [plastic green cover] to the PIV.
Collecting dictionaries is something of a hobby of mine. I've worked as a translator for over a decade and I don't think I've ever referred to an illustrated dictionary. They look nice, but I'm not sure how useful they are in practice.
February 13, 2010 by rargos, 1 year 51 weeks ago
PV
The "Plena Vortaro" is a great little dictionary and eminently useful. Alas, it too has gone out of print, and SAT has no plans to reprint it. It's dated, of course, so doesn't reflect language usage or changes since the 1950s.
LM
February 13, 2010 by Lee Miller, 1 year 51 weeks ago
On the other hand, if you're
On the other hand, if you're looking to be true to the original Esperanto (and avoid unnecessary neologisms or PIV-isms), the datedness can be a good thing.
I often see copies of PV pop up in online used bookstores or ebay. I have an extra copy or two that I picked up with the intention of giving it to some worthwhile beginner someday.
February 13, 2010 by kvarko, 1 year 51 weeks ago
Mi ankaŭ havas la PV-on.
Mi ĉiam uzas ĝin. Ĝi estas mia primara vortaro. Kiam mi diris la PIV-on, mi vere volas diri la PV-on. (Mi havas ambaŭ, sed la PIV-on estas sekundara)
February 13, 2010 by formiko, 1 year 51 weeks ago
Bildvortaro
I agree that the "I" in PIV is a bit exaggerated. I have been particularly pleased with the Bildvortaro by Sylla CHAVES. It was well worth the expenditure.
February 12, 2010 by limako, 1 year 51 weeks ago
I always thought that the
I always thought that the "illustrita" meant that there was more than just a definition for each word, specifically that most entries had examples that "illustrate" the word's usage. Not anything to do with picture illustrations.
February 13, 2010 by kvarko, 1 year 51 weeks ago
bildvortaroj . . .
Unfortunately, as is so often the case, the Chaves dictionary isn't available from either E-USA or UEA. The "Praktika Bildvortaro", published by Oxford, has been out of print for many years. And the same is true of the huge "Esperanta Bildvortaro", modeled after the German "Duden" dictionary.
And by the way . . . the revised Wells dictionary is scheduled to appear in March. I believe it's still possible to pre-order at considerable savings, so if anyone hasn't done that yet you can do so at:
https://mondialbooks.sslpowered.com/bookstore/nfoscomm/catalog/kreditkar...
LM
February 12, 2010 by Lee Miller, 1 year 51 weeks ago
Illustrations . . .
Well, the "illustrations" in the original PIV were not the most impressive part . . . although they do have a certain quaint charm about them. The same goes for the NPIV--the illustrations barely serve a purpose most of the time.
But it's important to realize that they're a minor part of the dictionary. The amazing thing is that the Esperanto community, with its limited resources, was able to yield a work like this one. It's impossible for me comprehend how Waringhien coordinated, edited and finalized this amount of material. There's a famous photo of him handing over the completed manuscript for printing--it's a stack of papers tied with cord about two feet tall. And all that before the era of computers, word processors, and internet.
There are some illustrated dictionaries of the kind you refer to. One comprehensive set of such pictures is available at lernu.net.
In all honesty, I rarely make use of the illustrations in dictionaries. In English, I'm a fan of the American Heritage dictionary series, because of the extensive usage notes. The unabridged edition is loaded with color pictures on every single page, and they're basically just decorations. Occasionally they clarify something, but I'd be just fine without them.
Lee
February 12, 2010 by Lee Miller, 1 year 51 weeks ago
I feel the illustrations
I feel the illustrations would help with flowers, plants and animals. The "definition" of "lacerto" leaves much to be desired, for example. Can you guess what it means from the definition alone?
Malgranda reptilio el la ordo de skvamuloj...
February 13, 2010 by formiko, 1 year 51 weeks ago